"I'M JUST LIKE ANYONE ELSE"

By PATRICK E. COLE

The defendant met with TIME correspondent Patrick E. Cole in an Oklahoma prison a day before being transferred to Colorado

TIME: You have been painted as a kid from a working-class family who somewhere along the line became disenchanted with the government and became involved in the bombing. Are you the killer people think you are?

McVeigh: If it means that I was angered at Waco and I enjoy guns as a hobby, I do go to gun shows, and I follow the beliefs of the Founding Fathers. If it means that I was involved in the bombing, then that means about a billion other Americans were involved as well. I don't think it is right to take someone's beliefs and convict them because of those beliefs.

TIME: What do you think about the prosecution's case against you?

McVeigh: While I can't discuss the specific evidence, people have to realize that 90% of the case that people think they have, it has all been through nonverifiable leaks. And I think you would be surprised how much those leaks are bogus. Especially through eyewitnesses.

TIME: Have you ever built a bomb?

McVeigh: I've never had my hand on one. I used to watch other people do it. I won't go into that. There were plastic soda bottles. They would put vinegar and baking soda in and screw the cap on, and it would burst.

TIME: Who is Timothy McVeigh? Who are you? What moves you? McVeigh: I don't think there is any way to narrow my personality down and label it as one thing or another. I'm just like anyone else. Movies I enjoy, comedies, sci fi. The big misconception is that I'm a loner. Well, I believe in having my own space. But that in no way means I'm a loner. I like women, social life. I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

TIME: People believe the Turner Diaries was an inspiration for the Oklahoma City bombing. You had this book, right?

McVeigh: I bought the book out of the publication that advertised the book as a gun-rights book. That's why I bought it; that's why I read it. In fact, I just recently read an interview with another Army buddy who said the same thing, that Tim gave me that book and told me to ignore the parts that were too extreme.

TIME: Are you satisfied with Judge Matsch based on what you've read about him?

McVeigh: And what I've seen of him. I'm impressed with the man. I like him. My view is that he is objective. He criticizes the prosecution as much as the defense. He's not pulling favorites. I even like his sense of humor.

TIME: Why do you want to take the stand at your upcoming trial?

McVeigh: So that the jurors know me and not what they've read.

TIME: What do you ask of the jury that will be selected in Denver to judge you?

McVeigh: I know it's human nature to not ignore what you've heard in the press, but I would ask them to be objective and open-minded. I have been misunderstood through labeling. Speed freak. Gun freak. Loner. My defense attorneys have said that people they have interviewed give a completely different picture of me.

TIME: When people look at the Oklahoma bombing situation, most people in Oklahoma say that "based on what I've read, McVeigh had some involvement." If you could talk to the people in Oklahoma City, what would you tell them in your defense?

McVeigh: I think we know exactly what we're going to tell them, but we're going to save it for court. Judge Matsch doesn't want this tried in the press, and I agree with that. But I believe in offsetting the demonization characteristics they put out. I believe that it is an accurate response and a just response.

TIME: Can you tell us this then: If you weren't in Oklahoma City the morning of the bombing, where were you?

McVeigh: I can't tell you. We're saving that for trial.

TIME: What do you think about Janet Reno's and President Clinton's calling for the death penalty for the suspects in the bombing before the investigation had been completed?

McVeigh: I thought it was awfully hypocritical, especially because in some ways, the government was responsible for doing it. I thought she was playing both sides of the fence.

TIME: What would be your principal complaint about the FBI?

McVeigh: Their actions in Waco, Texas, were wrong. And I'm not fixated on Waco. It's a very good example of things they have done. Like leaks of false allegations. If I could meet with FBI Director Louis Freeh, I would tell him we better order out pizza because it's going to be a lengthy meeting.

TIME: We understand you've seen a psychiatrist in the past eight weeks.

McVeigh: In the last couple of weeks. The conditions were getting to me. A camera 20 hours a day on you, and then you have a guy sitting 4 or 5 ft. away from you. I'm in a 15-ft. by 15-ft. cage. You can't run. You can't do sit-ups. There is no other way to vent. I had no way of getting rid of my stress.

TIME: Why don't you come out and maintain your innocence?

McVeigh: I have, and I've said I'm not guilty.