AWAITING HIS NATION'S CALL

By John Kohan, Yuri Zarakhovich

Lieut. General Alexander Lebed was once an amateur boxer, and one might pity the opponents who succeeded in hitting him, for his head, with its ridgelike brow and thick, snubbed nose, looks literally, physically hard, almost as if the skin and hair covered marble. Lebed's loud, deep voice also projects extraordinary strength--he can speak in thunderclaps. But when he was interviewed recently in Tiraspol by TIME Moscow bureau chief John Kohan and reporter Yuri Zarakhovich, Lebed's manner was calm even as he denounced the ``windbags'' running the Russian army, proclaimed that the crackdown on Chechnya must have been ordered up by ``dilettantes or madmen'' and mused about running the country himself someday. ``I don't really want to,'' he said, but ``I do not rule out the possibility that I might be forced to it out of necessity.''

Generals in the Russian army don't usually voice such opinions, but Lebed has made a habit of it, and his bluntness about the state of Russia is one reason he has become a rising favorite among nationalists and the military. In a recent survey, some 70% of officers said they would prefer Lebed as Defense Minister instead of Pavel Grachev, who has botched the Chechen war and faces accusations of corruption. Lebed also appeals to centrists who detest both Yeltsin and ultranationalist Vladimir Zhirinovsky. If he could count on the support of all these groups, Lebed would make a very strong candidate in the presidential election scheduled for June 1996.

Actions as well as words have earned him admiration. During the hard-liners' attempted coup of 1991, for example, he led a paratroop squad that protected Yeltsin's headquarters, the White House. Tiraspol is the capital of Trans-Dniestr, a region of Moldova, one of the former Soviet republics. The inhabitants of Trans-Dniestr are largely Russian and Ukrainian, and for several years they have sought independence from Moldova. Lebed was sent to the region in 1992 to take command of the Fourteenth Army, and he intervened in the conflict between Moldovans and the Russian-speaking population. He has remained in Tiraspol overseeing a wary peace.

Doubts remain about Yeltsin's ability to govern. He embarrassed himself at a summit meeting of the Commonwealth of Independent States in Kazakhstan two weeks ago when he was unable to walk unassisted, but last week he competently delivered a speech to a joint session of the Russian parliament, in which he blamed the military for the heavy losses sustained in Chechnya. Still, his behavior remains erratic, the war continues, and some Russians are looking elsewhere for leadership. When one of Lebed's aides was told that in Moscow the general was spoken of as ``a possible savior of the motherland,'' the aide quickly countered, ``What do you mean, `possible'? It's a fact.''

TIME: How is reform faring in the army?

Lebed: It is up to the state to do it, but there has been nothing but talk and wishful thinking. It's like the tale of the emperor's new clothes. Everyone acted as if the emperor were dressed, until a small boy said he was naked. This is where we stand with reform.

TIME: What will happen if things don't improve?

Lebed: Anything is possible. Maybe a social explosion. Look at Chechnya. They charged like a bull at the Chechen fence and got their horns stuck. Now they are going crazy out of their own impotence and incompetence. Chechnya will force the politicians to start serious reform. They can begin by purging the armed forces of windbags and replacing them with a million fighters and half a million support staff.

TIME: What other lessons should be learned from Chechnya?

Lebed: Leave nothing to happenstance. This operation was launched by either dilettantes or madmen.

TIME: Is the Defense Ministry trying to give the military on-the-ground training in Chechnya?

Lebed: This is not the way to prepare an army. They are risking a Chechen syndrome. Those untrained boys who were thrown in will only come out traumatized, having crossed a line that no human being should cross. To win, you've got to plan carefully and then make war with the speed of lightning. In this case, they did not plan at all. I'm tired of counting the number of times they claim to have taken Grozny.

TIME: Do you see a way out?

Lebed: Human beings are not trash. Human blood is not water to be spilled. This war, which nobody needs, must be stopped under any conditions, before it spreads throughout the entire region, into Russia proper.

TIME: Why has there not been a louder public protest in Russia?

Lebed: For the time being, it's just the parents of soldiers, most immediately affected, who are protesting. But things will reach the breaking point quite soon.

TIME: What will happen then?

Lebed: The protest could take many forms, such as civil disobedience, open insubordination and the ``hijacking'' of recruits. It's an abnormal state of affairs when mothers steal their sons from the armed forces. This absurdity says a lot about the level of military and political leadership in the country. But then, this war is unconstitutional. Did the President ever issue a decree to start hostilities? There is just an order from the Defense Minister. So no matter what anybody does, they cannot be called to account before the law. This whole thing has been politically inept from the start.

TIME: If a social explosion takes place, what will prevent the whole country from falling apart?

Lebed: The way things are going, only the armed forces. The politicians themselves have pushed the army in this direction. Look at what happened in October 1993 [when Yeltsin ordered the army to attack the rebellious parliament]. Who determined what political line to take then? A tank regiment commander. He fired on the White House--and made a political decision. So if you want to influence politics in Russia today, take good care of tank regiment commanders. Assign a politician to each of them, who can whisper into his ear who is to be shot and who isn't. We can create an ideal political system this way, don't you think?

TIME: So you're saying the armed forces are too involved in politics?

Lebed: Precisely. Suppose those tank men had refused to shoot in October 1993, what would have happened then?

TIME: But weren't you one of the defenders of the White House in August 1991?

Lebed: I never defended the White House. I defended common sense. They tried to push me, a Russian general, to shoot my own people in the capital of my own state. No such force exists that would compel me to do this. I'm not a policeman. My job is to deal with external enemies. Build up a national guard or whatever you want to deal with domestic problems, but leave the armed forces out of it!

TIME: Is the army in danger of splitting apart?

Lebed: Yes, every regional ``prince'' now has his own troops. He pays them, and they are ready to unsheathe their swords. This is totally abnormal. All armed forces must be under one single command. This is the way it used to be. Now everybody thinks he can have his own private army.

TIME: Let's suppose you were Defense Minister in Moscow, and a general out in Tiraspol was always criticizing you. How would you react?

Lebed: Positively. It's my ``porcupine'' theory of command. No commander can know everything. He must rely on deputies, competent in the narrow areas assigned them. His responsibility is to make sure none of them tugs the blanket to one side of the bed. A deputy who answers ``Yes, sir'' to every stupid thing his commander says can get his boss into serious trouble. He must have the courage to take a stand and be able to defend it.

TIME: Why do you make so many public statements, as if you were a politician?

Lebed: In a normal civilized society, you would have to force the army into politics with a stick. They should not be concerned with who is in power today, be it Czar, General Secretary or President. Presidents come and go, but the motherland always remains. We are not in a normal state. The Commonwealth of Independent States is, in fact, an alliance of abnormal states. That is why all this madness is going on.

TIME: Would you be prepared to assume power?

Lebed: I joined the armed forces 25 years ago and still love military service and want to carry on. But these are troubled times, when everything is so confused you can't tell military issues from political ones. So I do not rule out the possibility that I might be forced to it out of necessity. But I don't really want to. If I get carried away in this direction sometimes, it is only out of gloom and desperation, not because I have some overwhelming desire to prove my political mettle.

TIME: Would you do it in a constitutional way?

Lebed: Only in the constitutional way. I've had more than my share of war and have come to the conclusion that it doesn't resolve anything. Even the longest wars, lasting a hundred years, still end in peace talks. So why not talk right away and cut out the military fighting stage? There can't be a victor in the kinds of war they are waging now in the former Soviet Union, only throngs of defeated.

TIME: If you did feel that your involvement in politics became inevitable, how would you go about it?

Lebed: This is not a proper question to ask me. Do you want me to put my cart before my horse and tell the whole world on the pages of TIME magazine what my plans are?

-QUOTE-

"They charged like a bull at the Chechen fence and got their horns stuck. Now they are going crazy out of their own incompetence."

--Alexander Lebed