A Desire to Help Its Neighbors

By Nelson Mandela, John Stacks, Scott MacLeod and Peter Hawthorne.

The security around President-elect Nelson Mandela last week neatly captured the country's new mood: his African National Congress bodyguards mixed easily with his white, Afrikaans-speaking government agents, exchanging black-power handshakes and chatting amiably. Three days before his inauguration, Mandela talked in Cape Town with Time deputy managing editor John Stacks, Johannesburg bureau chief Scott MacLeod and correspondent Peter Hawthorne.

TIME: U.N. Secretary-General Boutros Boutros-Ghali has called on African nations to supply a peacekeeping force for Rwanda. Will South Africa take part?

Mandela: Our security forces are at present overstretched. But the fact that ((Zulu leader Mangosuthu)) Buthelezi is now participating ((in the government)) might make it unnecessary to have such large concentrations of security forces in Natal. Therefore we might have a unit available. There are many problems facing Africa, so I would be well disposed to assisting, provided I feel confident that the situation in this country is normal.

TIME: What about aid for Africa?

Mandela: This is something we would like to do. But at the same time we don't want to be assertive and remind Africa of the days of apartheid. We would like to do things on a basis of equality with other African states and consult them on what role we should play. Leave it to them to say, "Look, we want you to play this role on this particular issue." We have a problem in that we have to improve our image as projected during the days of apartheid. We have to be very, very careful not to create the impression that we want to dominate ((other African countries)) economically.

TIME: You say you are satisfied that your party got 63% of the vote, though two-thirds would have enabled you to write a new constitution without support from F.W. de Klerk's party, which came in second with 20%. We've never heard a politician say he was glad he didn't get even more votes. Can you explain?

Mandela: Mr. De Klerk was the first to telephone me to express his concern about the fact that we were on the verge of reaching a ((two-thirds)) majority. Mr. De Klerk was very much concerned. I didn't want him to be concerned. Therefore to have a two-thirds majority, which would have enabled us to do what we like, would have raised tensions in a situation where there should be normality, where people should be sure they are not just going to be used as rubber stamps. That is why I was relieved.

TIME: How will history judge De Klerk?

Mandela: Mr. De Klerk had the courage to come out openly and say, "Apartheid has failed. The best way is negotiations." We must compliment him for that. But in spite of the fact that he made this commendable contribution, it was a foregone conclusion that his party was going to disappear. After the next five years, I don't think anybody will ever hear of the National Party. He applied dirty-trick tactics in this campaign. Very dirty, racist tactics. Nevertheless we beat them. But Mr. De Klerk has made a contribution. Without him, we could not have made this progress. It would have been a series of conflicts and turmoil that would have further destroyed our economy. By his cooperation we avoided that catastrophe.

TIME: Are you worried about the stability of South Africa?

Mandela: I don't regard the future with any pessimism. I have been having discussions with the full general staff of the South African Defense Force. I have had discussions with all the police generals who are responsible for policy. Three days ago I met ((right-wing leader)) General Constand Viljoen and had very fruitful discussions with him. We made a plan as to how to deal with the demands of the Afrikaners. ((Viljoen, whose party won 2% of the vote, is seeking an Afrikaner state.)) The entry of Buthelezi into the elections and now the fact that he is going to serve in the government of national unity will actually reduce violence in Natal, and perhaps it will disappear altogether. As far as the question of the Third Force ((of right-wing security-force elements allegedly subverting democracy)) is concerned, we have taken over the army as well as the police. Mr. De Klerk tried to say, "If you take defense, give us the police. Or if you take the police, give us defense." I said, "No. Those two must be controlled by us. You are not in a position to clean the police force of the elements that are creating this violence. On the contrary, you are trying to defend the commission of activities by this Third Force that is in the security forces. We are the only people who can make sure that this question of the Third Force is dealt with."

TIME: How is your health?

Mandela: My health is good. Of course the strain has been very great. One of these days I am going to take a gun and go and shoot, but don't tell the environmentalists. One time I shot a kudu bull. By the time I returned from the game reserve and landed at the airport, there was a demonstration. "You are a murderer! You are a murderer!" I am going to go to the bush and rest a bit.