"People Need a Short, Sharp Shock"

By JANICE C. SIMPSON Sinead O''Connor

Q. You created an enormous controversy when you tore up a picture of the Pope on American TV a few weeks ago. Why did you do that?

A. It's not the man, obviously -- it's the office and the symbol of the organization that he represents. I consider them to be responsible for the destruction of entire races of people and the subsequent existence of domestic and child abuse in every country they went into.

Q. What connection do you see between the church and child abuse?

A. In Ireland we see our people are manifesting the highest incidence in Europe of child abuse. This is a direct result of the fact that they're not in contact with their history as Irish people and the fact that in the schools, the priests have been beating the s--- out of the children for years and sexually abusing them. This is the example that's been set for the people of Ireland. They have been controlled by the church, the very people who authorized what was done to them, who gave permission for what was done to them.

Q. But how does this relate to child abuse?

A. I'm talking about my own experience as an Irish woman. I grew up under extremely abusive circumstances.

Q. What kind of abuse?

A. Sexual and physical. Psychological. Spiritual. Emotional. Verbal. I went to school every day covered in bruises, boils, sties and face welts, you name it. Nobody ever said a bloody word or did a thing. Naturally I was very angered by the whole thing, and I had to find out why it had happened.

Q. What did you do?

A. I did all kinds of things. I read a lot of books, and I went to some shrinks. The thing that helped me most was the 12-step group, the Adult Children of Alcoholics/Dysfunctional Families. My mother was a Valium addict. What happened to me is a direct result of what happened to my mother and what happened to her in her house and in school.

Q. Are you saying there was a history of abuse in your family?

A. I'm saying that even if they had never been physically abused, by virtue of the fact that their education was controlled, they'd been abused from the time they were children. This is also child abuse. The desperateness people feel because their lives have been controlled, that's what causes it.

Q. That's a very broad and vague definition. Are you being fair to the very real pain that is suffered by the child who is regularly slapped around?

A. I was one of them -- that's why I'm doing this. You see, all the other things are the cause of this. The rules under which we operate in this society have been handed down from the Roman Empire and the Catholic Church by virtue of the fact that they invaded our societies. And because of that, we're manifesting domestic abuse.

Q. Wasn't there some other way you could have made your point besides tearing up a picture of the Pope?

A. No, there wasn't. I did it as a symbol of my rejection of what they are teaching people and of my belief that their influence in the world must be torn apart. I accept that tearing the picture can be viewed as a negative attitude, but one has to do what one can do. If I hadn't torn the picture, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Now people will listen to what I'm saying and let me explain what I'm talking about.

Q. Did you think a lot about this act before you did it?

A. Yes. I wanted to do it for Ireland because they've done a terrible thing to us. They've made it so that Irish people can't seem to stand up for their own identity without it being in some way associated with the IRA, and I want to create another avenue for expression. And I'm trying to give others the opportunity who have had the same experience as Ireland to come out with it too. We're all fighting each other, but we have one enemy in common. I say it's the Roman Empire and the Vatican.

Q. You sound as if you're saying the church is the root of all evil?

A. Yes, I am saying that. I consider myself to be a Christian. I consider the Vatican to be anti-Christian because in the name of Christianity, they committed anti-Christian acts. They blessed the bombs that went into Ethiopia. They gave permission for the Irish people to be starved, the French people, the African people, for the Jewish people to be slaughtered. They are responsible for all of the destruction we see in the world today.

Q. How have you maintained your faith when you have such strong feelings against the church?

A. When I was a child growing up in circumstances where I was completely ^ frightened, all I could do was ask God to help me. And he did, by giving me my voice and my instincts and my feelings. What is inside of us is what God is.

Q. Don't you believe the church has done any good at all?

A. I'm not going to get into that. Those who have done good know what they've done, and they don't need to have it clarified for them. And also, I would not disrespect people for believing what they've been taught. It's not their fault. But they've been told lies, and they have to face the truth.

Q. But if you want to get your message across, isn't there a way to do it without offending people?

A. There's no way to tell people this truth without having them be poff. The fact is that people are asleep. They need a short, sharp shock. They need that to make them stand up and listen. What happened at the Bob Dylan show is proof.

Q. Were you surprised when they booed you at the Bob Dylan concert in New York City's Madison Square Garden two weeks after you ripped up the Pope's picture?

A. Don't forget that half of them were cheering.

Q. So why did you sing the Bob Marley song you had performed when you tore up the Pope's picture instead of doing the Dylan song you had originally planned to do?

A. In some ways I wish I had. But I've already recorded the song, and I already know what it means to me. I mean, he was my inspiration when I was growing up. But whatever I felt and what Bob Dylan symbolized had gone. What occurred to me in those seconds was that if this audience felt like this, then they hadn't actually listened to what Bob Dylan said, they didn't actually get it. These are the people who supposedly believed in Bob Dylan, but they've fallen asleep. And this is proved by the fact that himself, their figurehead, fell asleep. Bob Dylan went onstage after that had happened to another artist.

Q. Did he say anything to you after the concert?

A. That I should keep on doing what I'm doing. But it's no good saying that to me. Why doesn't he say it to them? I mean, why doesn't he take his responsibility? So what I learned from that was that they have control of the music business too. Look who gets their records played and who doesn't. Look at who is honored and who isn't.

Q. The Grammy Awards tried to honor you last year, but you refused to appear on the show or accept their award.

A. O.K., shall I tell you why I wouldn't do the Grammys? I wanted to voice my $ objection to the use of the music business as a means of controlling information and of honoring artists for material success rather than artistic expression or the expression of truth, which I consider to be the job of artists.

Q. You seem to court controversy. How about the time when you wouldn't permit the U.S. national anthem to be played at one of your concerts? Some people think you do these things to get attention.

A. At that time in this country, they were stopping black artists from expressing themselves. They were censoring art, and they wanted to play their anthem before an artist went onstage. I wasn't going to make a public thing out of it. They were the ones that went public. But I learned from that. Now, as a human being and as a Christian, I must do whatever I can -- by any means necessary without the use of violence -- to fight for what I believe in.

Q. Frank Sinatra said he wanted to kick you in the butt when you rejected the national anthem, the actor Joe Pesci said he would have slapped you if he had been on the show when you ripped the picture, and a group smashed your records to protest what you had done. Why do you think it upsets people so much when you speak out?

A. The main reason is that I'm a woman. If I were a young man and I was on the TV saying these things, I would not be as brutalized. Secondly, it's because I'm not a safe woman in any way. That's because of the way I look, of course . . . the shaved head. I can't be put in any category, and that freaks people out. People always judge the book by the cover, and they don't listen. But I do believe in God and in what I'm trying to do.