Sisulu: "We

By Walter Sisulu, Scott MacLeod

Three days after his release from prison, Walter Sisulu met at his Soweto home with Johannesburg bureau chief Scott MacLeod. Sitting on a bed beside schoolbooks that belonged to his grandchildren, Sisulu began the interview only minutes after seven policemen departed. They had asked Sisulu to disperse groups of youngsters who were gathering outside. Excerpts:

Q. The police have just paid you a visit. Is there a problem?

A. That was General Viktor, the commander for this region. He was quite polite. He said it was time we wind things up. He doesn't want to be forced to act. I told him to give us a few days. By the way, General Viktor is the man who took my fingerprints 26 years ago. I said to him, "I remember you. I know you very well. You charged us." He said, "Yes, I remember."

Q. What have you discovered upon your return to Soweto?

A. What is new is the political consciousness. Even in the ordinary kid in primary school. The quality of the young people who are now handling the situation is very high. When we were running things, we never reached that stage.

Q. You met with Nelson Mandela just five days before your release.

A. When I saw him, I said, "You have never looked so bright." He looked tip- top. He told us the authorities had decided to release us and expressed his delight.

Q. Has Mandela discussed other matters with the government?

A. He told the government that there would be no solutions unless it met with the African National Congress and that it was the duty of the government to create the necessary conditions.

Q. Do you think F.W. de Klerk wants to negotiate with the A.N.C.?

A. I think he has such aims.

Q. Is Mandela in effect leading the anti-apartheid movement from prison?

A. The A.N.C. has an elected leadership. Whatever Mandela does, he first has to consult those leaders. Although the A.N.C. recognizes Mandela's standing, he cannot direct the group. What he can do, and what he has done, is communicate with the movement, reporting what he has done or what is being said to him ((by the government)).

Q. When will Mandela be free?

A. I don't know. But it is his opinion that he will not be released this year.

Q. De Klerk speaks about a step-by-step process. Thus far he has permitted protests and released some political prisoners. Is this a reasonable approach?

A. As long as he is beginning to recognize the voice of the people, we do appreciate that. But we don't want a step-by-step process. We want immediate radical change.

Q. The government says anybody favoring peaceful change can participate in talks. Does the A.N.C. meet this condition?

A. That type of thing we dismiss with contempt. The armed struggle continues. Until the government negotiates a new situation, including the end of violence, there is no way of stopping it.

Q. Do you believe you will see black majority rule in your lifetime?

A. I think so, because of the interaction of various forces internationally and at home, including the conflict among Afrikaners themselves.

Q. What can you do to calm the fears of whites who are concerned about black domination?

A. This is old propaganda. The most important thing is to educate the Afrikaners and the whites in general. When Afrikaners meet the A.N.C., they all come back impressed.

Q. Can education work?

A. In my cell I was alone but guarded all the time by a ((white)) warder. He would make comments and become very hostile when he saw certain things about the A.N.C. on TV. I then took a chance to talk to him, to educate him. In the end, he understood.