Knowing the Enemy
By Karsten Prager, Murray J. Gart, Yasser Arafat
His gyrations through the region have accelerated as he prepares the ground for the meeting later this month of the informal Palestinian parliament that is expected to decide whether to proclaim an independent state, based on territory currently occupied by Israel -- the West Bank and Gaza -- and run by a provisional government. At 59, Arafat is a man both admired as a revolutionary leader and despised as a terrorist, a leader who can be calmly reasonable or passionately shrill in the pursuit of his cause. Last week Arafat borrowed an Iraqi jet for a brief trip to Turkey, complete with a Turkish air force fighter escort. During his trip he met with assistant managing editor Karsten Prager and senior correspondent Murray J. Gart for eight hours of conversation, partly aboard his plane and also in the Baghdad headquarters that doubles as his home. While he repeated some familiar positions, he surprised his visitors with glimpses into his personal life and with his eagerness to begin negotiations with Israel.
Q. You take extraordinary security precautions these days. Why are they necessary?
A. I know ((the Israelis)) have been following me, but there's nothing new in that. They have followed me since I was in the occupied territories and whenever I was present during a siege.
Q. But neither side is going after the other's top leadership. If the Israelis wanted to kill Arafat, they could.
A. Not true. What about the bombing of my residence in Tunis ((in 1985)) -- four buildings destroyed, 74 killed, 122 wounded. And the same during the Beirut fighting ((in 1982)). They tried to snipe at me by airplane. ((Israeli General Ariel)) Sharon said, "We will get him." But he did not succeed.
Q. So all these years you have not slept easily?
A. No. I sleep easily, but not in the same place.
Q. Do you still stay only one night in one place?
A. Yes. This is my rule everywhere. Only I know where. Nobody else. Only when I get into my car do I give the instructions.
Q. That's the art of survival?
A. It is not a picnic. We have to be very careful.
Q. You were born in Cairo?
A. Yes. It is very difficult. I don't like to speak about myself. I passed my boyhood with my uncle in Jerusalem.
Q. Where did you live in Jerusalem?
A. Near the Wailing Wall in the Old City. The Israelis demolished the house in 1967.
Q. When was the last time you saw the place?
A. 1968, after the invasion.
Q. Did you visit your family?
A. No, I couldn't. I didn't want to put them in danger. Second, I didn't want to unmask my presence. Who wouldn't talk? Especially the small kids, children who might call out, "Arafat is here! Arafat is here!"
Q. You financed the P.L.O. during the early years?
A. I participated in financing it.
Q. Because you were a millionaire?
A. No, I never was a millionaire. I was rich. In Kuwait I started three construction companies with partners. They were successful. When I left for Fatah and the P.L.O., my partners paid me for my shares and I left money behind, invested in companies that have become very successful. Let us say I have enough. Until now I have not taken any money from the P.L.O. or the Fatah organization. I still spend my own money.
Q. Why do you defend particular terrorists, for example Abul Abbas Zaidan, who led the hijacking of the Italian ship on which the American tourist was killed?
A. How? How?
Q. By keeping him on your payroll, so to speak, on your P.L.O. executive committee.
A. Our payroll? He was elected. I can't prevent that. ((Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak)) Shamir, who was wanted by Interpol, was later elected and is the Prime Minister. This is democracy. I did not elect Abul Abbas. It was the Palestine National Council ((P.N.C.)) that elected him. And a part of the reason is this, that it was a matter of indignity, national indignity; when Reagan breached the agreement with President Mubarak and they hijacked the plane and tried to put him in jail, that caused a reaction of sympathy for him.
Q. A lot of people in the West, when they hear your name, think of . .
A. . . . a monster, a terrorist? Why? Who says that? I can't accept your saying it. George Washington was called a terrorist by the British. De Gaulle was called a terrorist by the Nazis. What can they say about the P.L.O., except to repeat this slogan? We are freedom fighters, and we are proud of it. According to international law and the United Nations Charter, I have the right to resist Israeli occupation. I don't want to harm anybody. But look how they are treating my people. These savage, barbarian, fascist practices against our children, our women!
Q. You have said that the U.S. Government is not being constructive when it keeps insisting that the P.L.O. is a terrorist organization.
A. I am sorry to say that is true. If they insist that any Palestinian who - does anything anywhere is the responsibility of the P.L.O., then I have to blame the American President for the Mafia, as an example, or for many Americans who are committing crimes and making mistakes.
Q. The U.S. says that the points to be resolved before it can have any contact or conversation with the P.L.O. are your acceptance of Resolution 242 ((which says a balance should be found between Israeli claims for secure and defensible borders and the return of territories it occupied during the 1967 war)), Resolution 338 and Israel's right to exist. In your own mind and formally, have you renounced terrorism?
A. I have declared it many times, but ((the Americans)) are not willing to listen. I have repeated that I have accepted 242 and 338 along with all United Nations resolutions. But there is an American policy to neglect the Palestinian people; self-determination is a sacred right for every people except the Palestinians. The self-determination that was one of the main items for the American Constitution. How can this be understood?
Q. Then your position is that you have renounced acts of terrorism anywhere but inside the occupied territories?
A. I am not dealing with terrorism inside our occupied territories. We will continue struggling and resisting occupation, which is the legal way. People who face oppression or occupation, according to the U.N. Charter, have that right. You Americans tasted British occupation and you faced it; Europe tasted Nazi occupation and faced it. We have the right to do the same.
Q. You want mutual recognition?
A. Between two states. Israel has to ask this from the Palestinian state. It is not right to ask it from the P.L.O. I am telling the Israelis that I am searching for their De Gaulle, who will make peace with me and my people as DeGaulle did with the Algerians. But it seems there are no De Gaulles in Israel. In any case, we have to wait and see after their election. No De Gaulles. I know the Israelis. I know my enemy very well.
Q. Which Israelis would you talk with after the Israeli election?
A. Those who accept an international conference for Palestinian rights according to international law and are ready to fight together with us to implement peace in this area. Forty years is enough!
Q. Of course in the first instance you have to find a way to live with them.
A. I have declared it, but they refuse to listen to what we are offering.
& Q. Israelis say that all you want is to throw them into the sea.
A. This is a big lie. A big lie. A very big lie! We are ready to live with them. They don't want to live with us.
Q. If the P.N.C. declares the existence of a Palestinian state, how does that affect the P.L.O. Charter, parts of which concern the elimination of Israel?
A. Nowhere is there mention of the elimination of Israel. We are opposed to a Zionist state; Zionism is a racist movement, according to a U.N. resolution.
Q. Reading from the charter, Article 15: "The liberation of Palestine, from an Arab viewpoint, is a national duty and it attempts to repel the Zionist and imperialist . . ."
A. Zionist. Zionist.
Q. ". . . aggression against the Arab homeland." It is your responsibility, then, to throw Zionism out?
A. We don't want a racist state in this area.
Q. If the Israelis could show you that they are no longer Zionist, then the state would be welcome?
A. They would be welcome. They are our cousins. But if Zionism means having an empire between the Euphrates and the Nile, who can accept that in this area?
Q. And the next Israeli government?
A. I am sure there will be another coalition. They can't rule in this atmosphere without it. It is war. Twelve months of war. The intifadeh. More than 50% of the Israeli army is in the streets -- in the villages, in the towns, in the camps. Definitely, no single party can carry this responsibility.
Q. It's hard to imagine today, but let's say the international conference you want is convened, and it comes down to the Palestinians face to face with the Israelis. Can you make a deal?
A. I am ready to sit in an international conference with the Israelis, no matter whom they send. Anyone they choose. I am not like the Israelis, like an ostrich. I have to deal with my enemies. The enemy will say, our representative is Sharon, our representative is Peres, our representative is Rabin. I can't say no.
Q. You are willing at such a conference to negotiate on the basis of the two Security Council resolutions 242 and 338. Am I correct?
A. And self-determination and political rights for the Palestinian people. I am saying political rights, as Shultz has. The Palestinians have political rights, including our self-determination.
Q. You will be trying to gain a homeland on the basis of 242 and 338, self- | determination and your political rights? Period?
A. Period! Yes. Clear and obvious. What are we looking for? We want a place for our bodies to be buried in and a place where our new generations, our children, can live as freely as other human beings. We want an end to daily massacres, sometimes in Beirut, sometimes inside the territories, sometimes in Nablus, in Gaza. Forty years of continuous massacres! Continuous genocide! You know that. The world knows it. It is enough.
Q. What happens if the Israelis say no to a settlement, that time is on their side?
A. O.K. Let them explain that they are not looking for peace. You can't hide behind your fingers. As for us, we are preparing ourselves for a long resistance. We have known that from the beginning. In 1968 we started the first ((training)) camp for our kids.
Q. And you are prepared to go on for another 20 years?
A. Yes. The Israelis are stupid if they carry on in their policy. The current of history is not on their side. We are with the current of history.
Q. But the current of history has had the P.L.O. going nowhere slowly, until very recently.
A. We were close to our goals twice. Once in 1977, when Sadat betrayed us by going to Jerusalem, and in 1982, when we won in the longest ever confrontation with the Israelis, and Assad betrayed us.
Q. So your principal enemies have been Arabs?
A. No. They've been responsible for some of our troubles, perhaps.
Q. As an Arab, doesn't that make you angry?
A. No. This is my nation. I can't jump out of my skin.
Q. If in 1967 you had known what you know now, that the intifadeh as an unarmed mass movement in the occupied territories has achieved more in eleven months than years of P.L.O.-Israeli fighting, would you have chosen a strategy of armed revolution?
A. The intifadeh did not come out of a vacuum. It is the result of all the years of resistance, of struggle. You can't just say "start," like to a machine.
Q. You are willing to let history render the final verdict on you?
A. Yes. You see, you cannot hide the sun with your fingers.