The Republicans "I've Been Underestimated"

By Robert Ajemian, David Beckwith, George Bush

On the eve of his nomination, George Bush seemed in an upbeat mood as he met with TIME Correspondents Robert Ajemian and David Beckwith in his White House office. Halfway through the discussion last Friday, the Vice President excused himself to take a call from his campaign chairman, James A. Baker. On his return, a deadpan look on his face, Bush declared he had called on his executive skills to "straighten the new kid out." Excerpts from the interview:

Q. Critics say you still have not defined a vision of America, or where you want to take the country.

A. We're defining it every single day. But you know what I don't hear? I don't hear the refrain "How are you going to distance yourself from the President?" anymore. One reason is, I'm defining in specific speeches and position papers what I'll do. Some of it might be totally compatible with what the President has done and said. But there are some differences: opening up the tax structure, drug czar, ethics program, a little different emphasis on the specifics of education. This is what George Bush wants to do.

Q. But I don't hear you saying exactly why you want to be President.

A. I've said over and over again why I want to be President. My trip to Poland ((in 1987)) drove home to me the disproportionate responsibility of the United States. I know enough about the churning in Eastern Europe today to think that maybe there is a chance, not a fifty-fifty but a longer-shot chance, of having more freedom for the people there if we handle our policy of differentiation correctly and build on it. I want to offer the hope of freedom to countries around the world because that's the basis of our very being in this country, our own freedoms.

Q. There's a recurring feeling, even among your lifelong friends, that the George Bush they see on television is not the good friend they know. He seems more uneasy, more hesitant, less amusing.

A. I've heard exactly the same thing. I'm six feet two, and when I go out on the campaign trail, people say, "We thought you were a short guy." I've been six-two since I was 18 years old. So I've got to do better, particularly on television, which is mainly where people get their views.

Q. There's a nervousness that you have no clear philosophy, no clear framework that people can see and understand. Do you think a leader needs an identifiable ideology to lift his followers?

A. Yes. You have to have a base in life. In my case, I'm a conservative: don't erode out the private sector, have the Federal Government stay contained but still responsive in certain areas. When I say I'll never apologize for America, I really believe that. And I believe that we are the most decent, fairest, most honorable country in the world. We've got to remain the strongest, and we have to be able to do a disproportionate amount for freedom around the world.

Q. Is there a streak of boldness anywhere in your politics?

A. There are certain things I have done that I take great pride in: going down to El Salvador and talking to those comandantes ((in 1983)), helping shape public opinion on arms control, going over to Europe in the face of those vicious demonstrations ((in 1983)). But my philosophy is that when you're part of an Administration, you don't jump out and try to take credit. You are part of a team.

Q. With some, that comes out as too much deference for authority.

A. It doesn't come out that way with the voters, fortunately, because I'm sitting here as one of two people who might be the next President. I know it comes out that way with some, but not with me and not with them. It may have something to do with being Vice President. Nelson Rockefeller told me he had his legs cut off by the White House staff. "I hate this job," he said. But I like the satisfaction of just walking down the hall and telling the President what I think.

Q. Some people think Dukakis is so driven that he wants to be President more than you do.

A. No, no, I don't agree. I've been underestimated over and over again, by political observers and political opponents, and here I am. A lot of people have fallen by the wayside. So no, he is not driven more. I will outwork him, outhustle him, outrun him, and outknowledge him. He has his strengths, but one of them isn't wanting to be President more than I do.

I think I would be better, because I know where I want to see the country go, and I'm not sure he does. Anybody who says ideology doesn't matter, like he does, I don't think that is good enough for America today. America needs to know what drives you, what ideology and philosophy drive you.

Q. He has a reputation as a real hard fighter.

A. But he's playing in a different ball game now. He's not up against a one- party legislature. He's up against George Bush, who has been tested at this level of American politics, and there's nothing like it. Come on in, the water's fine. We're talking about the big leagues now. We're talking about convictions and experience. We're talking ideology, not just competence. It's different from running for Governor of Massachusetts.

Q. Would there be any real differences in the way you and Dukakis would approach ethics in Government?

A. I spelled out in specifics what I would do. All I've heard out of the opposition is assailing Ed Meese. Ed Meese was not indicted. But Mr. ((Gerard)) Indelicato in Massachusetts was indicted. So please tell me what the difference is, Governor. One was a high-ranking state education official, indicted, convicted, and on his way to prison. And here is a man standing there with all the chutzpah in the world, pointing the finger at somebody else. And I might say, to get one last political shot in here, the analogy of a fish rotting from the head down was very offensive to a lot of people in this country. And you're looking at one of them.

Q. You've met and talked with Gorbachev several times. How do you think he would size up Dukakis?

A. I think that if he decided that Dukakis means what he's said -- that he really believes in a nuclear freeze, or that we have no business supporting those fighting for freedom in Nicaragua, or that U.S. policy in Angola is all wrong -- then our progress we've made with the Soviets would be in jeopardy. There would be no need for the Soviets to continue what they're doing: getting out of Afghanistan, for example, or allowing more Jews to exit the Soviet Union.

So if he thinks Dukakis is going to cut two carrier battle groups, for example, unilaterally, with no concession in conventional or sea forces, then Gorbachev is going to have a lot of pressure off of him. If he took Dukakis seriously on the freeze, why in the world would he negotiate? The Soviets would say, "What incentive is there for us to do what the Reagan Administration has been urging, and what George Bush would urge us to do?"

Q. You often speak of your grandchildren. What is the most important gift parents can impart to children?

A. Love -- that's the most important. And then back them up, and when they get hurt, pick them up and dust them off and put them back in the game. You don't leave them when the going is tough. Give them a lot of love. They'll come home. Ours have.

The most fun I have today in my life is when I'm doing something with my grandkids or with our boys and Doro ((the Bushes' daughter Dorothy)). It's the most fun. Nothing else compares, nothing. It's because we give them love and we get it back cubed, quadrupled.

Q. Your opponent often invokes the American dream. Do you think the American dream has become focused on material things?

A. I hope not. I don't think it's a selfish dream, a dream of crass materialism. I think part of the dream ought to be helping the other guy, caring about others.

Q. What else motivates you? Does power excite you, stir you?

A. Not particularly. I've never had a feeling that I was driven by a power- hungry mentality. I don't think in those terms. Just like when I was in business, stacking up money wasn't the only motivation. You want to help people. It's not just the kick out of saying "I'm a powerful person."

Q. Do you view yourself as a conceptualizer or as a person who recognizes ideas that matter?

A. I don't view myself as an intellectual. I view myself as bright and intelligent, but not an intellectual. I am reasonably well read, but not what you would call exceptionally well read. I need help from good people in order to make . . . to do what I want to do as President. I think I am good . . . I would be good at sorting out bad ideas from good ideas.

Q. On Thursday you'll give the most important speech of your life. What do you want people to say after they hear it?

A. He's a good man. He's the man who, based on his experience and conviction, should lead the United States and the free world.