A Plea for International Support

Khmer Rouge Leader Khieu Samphan gives a rare interview

The Khmer Rouge Communists were driven out of Phnom-Penh in January 1979 by the superior firepower of invading Vietnamese armies. Since then, from camps in remote jungle areas, they have carried on a bitter struggle against their ancient ethnic enemies. Last week the Khmer Rouge--perhaps the world's most secretive and xenophobic Marxists --allowed a small group of Western journalists, including TIME Hong Kong Bureau Chief Marsh Clark, to visit one of their bases inside Cambodia. Anxious to placate world opinion, which was appalled by reports that they had slaughtered millions of their own people, the Khmer Rouge produced their most articulate leader, President and Premier Khieu Samphan, 48. His confident if ominous message: the guerrillas will fight a protracted "people's war" against the Vietnamese and will eventually prevail.

Samphan's doctoral dissertation, written in Paris in the 1950s, provided the ideological basis for some of the Khmer Rouge's most radical policies, like Cambodia's complete withdrawal from the world economy. Three months ago, he became supreme leader of Democratic Kampuchea (as the Khmer Rouge call Cambodia), succeeding notorious ex-Premier Pol Pot, who nonetheless still commands the guerrilla army. In a lengthy statement to visiting journalists, Samphan claimed that the Khmer Rouge has a fighting force of 50,000, a figure that is far in excess of most Western estimates. He called for unity among Cambodians of all political beliefs in order to drive out the invaders. In striking contrast to the fanatical rigidity of past Khmer Rouge pronouncements, Samphan even proposed a coalition government that might include Prince Norodom Sihanouk and Heng Samrin, who heads the Hanoi-backed government in Phnom-Penh. Then, Samphan said, an election supervised by the U.N. could help to determine the new leadership of Cambodia.

Samphan also granted an exclusive interview to Clark, the first he has given since he became Premier. Composed, almost serene, Samphan sat at a table beneath a canopy of banyan trees as silent Khmer Rouge soldiers stood guard. Excerpts from the 90-minute conversation:

Q. Do you feel that your government made mistakes during the four years that the Khmer Rouge held power in Phnom-Penh?

A. After our war [against the pro-Western Lon Nol government], we had to face many complicated problems. But we had one major achievement: we solved the food problem for our people. Of course, there were some shortcomings. Even our cadres [Communist officials] had their shortcomings.

Q. Various estimates have been made of the number of people who were killed while you were in power in Phnom-Penh. How many people were executed?

A. We never engaged in mass killings. There was no reason for us to carry out this so-called genocide. Some people say we killed more than 3 million. That is not true.

Q. How many people were eliminated when you made your revolution?

A. All I can say is that the number was not more than 10,000.

Q. So you are saying that the almost unanimous testimony of refugees in Thailand and that of other witnesses is incorrect?

A. They are not correct. Very few people were against us. That is why we have succeeded in conducting our people's war against the Vietnamese invaders for the past year. We could not have done this unless we had had the support of the people. About those executions: that is in the past.

Q. If your government regains control of Kampuchea, would you do things differently than you did before?

A. If we succeed in defeating the Vietnamese, we will use currency, we will permit more freedom of movement by our citizens. People will be free to practice religion.

Q. Another of your policies was the removal of people from the cities. When and if you come back to power, will you force people to leave Phnom-Penh and other cities?

Q. Do you have any evidence to support your claim that the Vietnamese are using toxic gas against you?

A. We are trying to find evidence to present to the world. We have already started to provide proof to the International Red Cross.

Q. What will happen to the Cambodian refugees in Thailand?

A. These are people who are fleeing from the Vietnamese aggressor. When the situation is peaceful and stable, then they will come back. The policy of Democratic Kampuchea is to take back these refugees, and we have done so.

Q. Does that include nonCommunists?

A. We will welcome any person who is willing to come back, because, as you know, the problem we face is the survival of our race.

Q. What is your country's population? Some people think there may have been as many as 8 million Cambodians in 1975. Do you have any idea how many are still alive?

A. We do not know anything definite, but there have been no fewer than 2 million victims of the Vietnamese. If we don't succeed in stopping the Vietnamese, then extermination will occur. At present, our people are dying every day. In every village, five or six people die each day.

Q. Of starvation?

A. Yes. In some villages of about a thousand houses, only 50 or 60 are inhabited now. All the other inhabitants have either been killed by Vietnamese weapons or have died of starvation.

Q. To what extent are international relief food supplies getting through to the Cambodian people?

A. I wish to tell you that the relief supplies being sent in through Kompong Som and Phnom-Penh never reach the Cambodian people. The Vietnamese have not distributed relief supplies. At the same time, they continue to plunder and to destroy the means of food production that the people have managed to achieve. That's why we appeal to all international organizations to prevent the Vietnamese from taking this aid and to send their personnel to supervise its distribution.

Q. The relief organizations say that some aid is getting through.

A. The Vietnamese distribute the aid in front of the personnel of the international organizatons and then later they come back and collect all the aid and give it to their own troops.

Q. There have been many travelers to Cambodia who say there is not a single provincial capital where your flag is flying. How much of Kampuchea do you control?

A. During the rainy season last year, we estimated that one-fourth of the country was under our control and one-fourth under Vietnamese control. The rest was contested. Since then, the Vietnamese have made some breakthroughs into our areas, but we have made some breakthroughs into theirs. The most important thing is that our areas of control are now spread widely across the whole country.

Q. You have said that you are killing 200 Vietnamese soldiers every day. How many soldiers are you losing?

A. From December 1978 to May 1979, when we were waging conventional war against the Vietnamese with large forces, casualties were heavy on both sides. During that period we suffered about 30,000 casualties. But from May 1979 up to now, we have been carrying out guerrilla tactics. Casualties have been minimized. We have lost about 2,000 in that period.

Q. You say you want the international community to try putting pressure on Viet Nam to get out of Kampuchea. The Vietnamese have stated repeatedly that their course is "irreversible." So aren't you faced with a protracted war?

A. The Vietnamese say their course is irreversible because they are trying to encourage their troops, whose morale is very low. But the fighting is such that it is obvious that the Vietnamese face many difficulties. The international community has condemned Viet Nam for its invasion. The Vietnamese are begging for international aid to help them in their aggression because Viet Nam itself does not have a strong economic base. While we are fighting the Vietnamese on the battlefield, if the international community could put pressure on Viet Nam--diplomatic, economic pressure by cutting off all aid--then we could force Viet Nam to withdraw its army. -

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